asking Al Gore to run in 2008!
Clinton/Obama
Posted February 10th, 2008 by ArtyGreen4Gore
This is a winning ticket!
Why is is that white men don't like Hillary? I like Obama better than Hillary, as an orator but am concerned about his lack of experience. Hilary is not the orator that Obama is -- but they are both financed by BIG Business. In that case, dramatic change won't happen, in fact, Obama will owe many favors, and be more easily influenced but the boys that helped him step up.
Change sounds good, but often with Obama it seems more a campaign slogan than an action plan. Hillary and Obama are both capable of about as much change as Democrats in our system will allow, which depends on Congressman, Senators, Presidents, etc. getting their financing for upcoming elections from Big Business. Hillary was the first to introduce a national health plan, which was a solid plan for change, and I feel her experience and contacts will allow her to deliver more change, as President, than if Obama, won in 2008.
Let's focus on strategy. We don't want to see another loss. With Obama and the primary process, many don't prefer Hillary -- particularly white men, but when all is said and done, she is a very capable advocate for change. Presidential elections are very different than debates (which Obama is a master of) and primaries. Many don't even vote in primaries. Against McCain (maybe McCain/Rice) Obama will get SLAMMED because of his inexperience, if the ticket is Clinton/Obama he will be on board to lend his brilliance and support, and become VP, which will be so much better for everyone than a 3rd Democratic loss.
CLINTON/OBAMA!!!! That's the winning team for 2008!
Be part of the Draft Gore '08 campaign!
More inconvenient truth for ArtyGreen4Gore
Zogby Poll: Obama Cruises in Election Match-Ups against McCain, Huckabee
Clinton lags, losing to McCain and barely leading Huckabee
Barack Obama has gained strength in prospective general election match-ups against Republicans John McCain and Mike Huckabee, while Hillary Clinton does not fare as well, a new nationwide Zogby Interactive poll shows.
The online survey shows that Obama would defeat both McCain and Huckabee, while Clinton would lose to McCain and only defeat Huckabee by a small margin.
http://www.zogby.com/methodology/readmeth.dbm?ID=1274
Colorado poll: Obama BEATS McCain by 7; Hillary LOSES to McCain by 14
The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey shows that Barack Obama (D) currently holds a seven-point advantage over John McCain (R), 46% to 39%. However, if the Democrats nominate Hillary Clinton, McCain will begin the race with a fourteen point advantage, 49% to 35%. %. National polling, updated daily, currently shows the same general trend with Obama currently performing better than Clinton in match-ups with McCain.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2...
The polls have been pretty consistent: Obama is the stronger candidate against McCain.
Hillary will lose because half of the country hates her.
For good reason, by the way.
Is Obama All Style and Little Substance?
I do not think his credentials -- and charisma -- are enough to carry him through to a win in 08'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/27/AR200703...
Again, why don't you do your homeworks?
1. What are Hillary's accomplishments that make her superior?
She failed in 1994 and that's somehow makes her more credible on health care?
Of course. Failure is success. And up is down. And recession is prosperity. You've learned a lot from Bush.
2. Why don't you go to Thomas and look at Obama's and Hillary's Senate record?
It's simply not true that Hillary achieved more or tried to do more, for that matter.
3. Or why don't you go to his website and inform yourself about his agenda?
Because some scribe at the WaPo told you that he is all style and no substance?
Well, a bunch of scribes told you in 2000 that Gore was a pathological liar and a serial exaggerator so sure that was indeed the case, wasn't it?
Anyway, it's funny how you ignore those polls. Your feeling is a much better indicator of who is the stronger general election candidate. Yep. Ignorance is bliss.
I Ignore them because I'm not getting in a pissing match...
You present a time poll like it's a gospel... Then minimize my response... OK we're debating... and no one really knows at this point who will get the nomination... do they? Thanks for responding though, I appreciate it.
You accuse me of whining while I'm holding my "tongue" really... So all I can say is it's a crap shoot for the nomination and I'm worried because I don't feel Obama can win, but if he teamed with Hillary, they would win.
Same old story, huh? That's because there is a lot at stake and if Obama's cool style get's him the nomination I "see" that he will win the battle and lose the war.
Can you show US some polls from major networks?
Hi Yabu,
I studied Solar Design in Colorado and there are some very enlightened people there, but it's primarily a conservative state, with pockets of enlightenment, so for Colorado to pick Obama that's hard to believe.
How about showing us some polls from major networks? What are they saying? If the pols are pretty consistent let's see some from networks that have a lot of influence. I was rooting for Romney -- because I knew he would not win a national election. When McCain "The "Liberal Conservative" took the lead, it became a much tougher situation for Democrats -- that's for sure.
Why is it the concept of a power ticket of CLINTON/OBAMA is so unattractive to you. Why is it you feel his inexperience will not hurt him in a National Election? What about past Presidents with virtually no executive experience, do you know of any in the recent past? Would Obama and the USA benefit if the ticket was CLINTON/OBAMA and they won?
For a long time Democrats and republicans -- particularly White men -- were racist. Obama is doing wonders to change that. Women... that's another story... sure women now get to vote, and hold elected office, but the thing I just heard, was "Hillary is a cunt". (NOT HERE and excuse the language). I don't hear that she's not capable. I don't hear substantiation that she's not up to doing the job. Obama supporters feel he is more for change but I don't hear any action plans. Hillary was the first to create a plan for real change and Universal health care and she can do a good job, and will not be subject to the extent of claims of inexperience, that Obama will -- and are true -- whether we believe he's capable or not. If he helps US win and the ticket is CLINTON/OBAMA that's a team that represents CHANGE, and one I feel can defeat McCain. As I said I don't think Obama/? will defeat McCain, and that's scary.
Exuse me but this one is really stupid
Hillary was the first to create a plan for real change and Universal health care and she can do a good job,
No. Hillary didn't create a plan for Universal health care. She created a plan which not only didn't deliver Universal health care but was the biggest policy and political disaster of the Clinton administration. A plan which Gore opposed because he knew better. It had no chance because it was stinking from old styled big government liberalism at a time when we had a record deficit and an economy still struggling to recover from the recession.
She didn't do a good job back then. She did it in secret she didn't care about anyone with an opposing view and she helped the Repubs win the midterm elections. That's her real record.
The idea of universal health care was not hers, it had been around for decades before Hillary came up with that messy nonsense in 1993.
Obama supporters feel he is more for change but I don't hear any action plans.
That's because you don't want to hear those action plans.
You don't visit his website and click on issues, you don't understand his health care plan, his energy plan, his economic plan because you don't care.
You didn't listen to his speech on the economy yesterday and you won't listen to his policy speeches in the future.
I.e. the problem is with you not Obama. If he talks and you don't listen that's your fault not his.
She did create the plan but it was undermined like Gore in 2000
Yabu,
Don't expect me to actually respond to your bullying anymore. I don't need to listen to what you say to listen to, nor do what you want me to do. You are supporting a talented politician whom I don't believe can win, and I'll leave it at that for now. People can read the details in my other posts.
Hillary was the first one to bring the vision and planning of Universal health care to Washington... that she didn't succeed the first time... is not because she didn't try, and she was a first Lady back then. It's amazing she was that capable when she wasn't even in elected office. So try as you may, to give all this credit for change to Obama... He's mostly talk -- so far -- good taker though. Hillary did not give up and became a Senator in 2000, and now is the best choice to become President, IMHO.
So If McCain chooses Rice as a running mate -- which I would do if I was him and wanted to win -- what will that do to the polls? Did you ever address my question of another President, in the recent past who was elected with virtually no Executive experience? I don't mind that you ignored that but don't expect me to take my direction from you either... What the heck????? Let's keep things on a friendly note.
Re:
I studied Solar Design in Colorado and there are some very enlightened people there, but it's primarily a conservative state, with pockets of enlightenment, so for Colorado to pick Obama that's hard to believe.
Sure it's hard to believe because you don't want to believe it.
Here's another one, also from a red state:
Nevada Ras Poll: Obama 50% McCain 38%, McCain 49% Clinton 40%
Thursday, February 14, 2008
Nevada has cast its Electoral College Votes for the winning candidate in seven straight Presidential Elections. The last four have been very competitive with nobody carrying the state by more than four percent of the popular vote.
Looking ahead to November 2008, Barack Obama has a twelve-point lead over John McCain in a general election match-up. Obama attracts 50% of the vote while McCain earns 38%.
At the same time, McCain has a nine-point lead over Hillary Clinton, 49% to 40%.
Nationally, Obama outperforms Clinton in general election match-ups against McCain. However, the gap is not as large nationally as it is in Nevada. A similar dynamic was found in New Hampshire and Colorado.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_...
Another poll, Associated Press-Ipsos released Monday:
Recent primaries and Mitt Romney's departure from the Republican race have made McCain the heavy favorite to win the GOP presidential nomination. Clinton and Obama are locked in a Democratic battle that may take weeks or even months to resolve.
When she is paired against McCain in a general election matchup, she gets 46 percent to his 45 percent, a tie, according to the poll. Obama edges McCain, the Arizona senator, 48 percent to 42 percent in their pairing.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080212/POLITICS01/80...
And another one from Time:
Time Poll: Obama Better Against McCain Than Clinton
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/08/time-poll-obama-better-a_n_8571...
What makes you think that TV networks are more credible than Time, Zogby or Rassmussen?
Anyway, here you have it:
Barack Obama leads John McCain in eight of the nine most recent head-to-head polls
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html
CNN 02/01 - 02/03 974 RV 44% 52% Obama +8%
CNN 02/01 - 02/03 974 RV 47% 50% Clinton +3%
ABC/Wash Post 01/30 - 02/01 1249 A 49% 46% McCain +3%
ABC/Wash Post 01/30 - 02/01 1249 A 46% 49% Obama +3%
FOX News 01/30 - 01/31 900 RV 45% 44% McCain +1%
FOX News 01/30 - 01/31 900 RV 43% 44% Obama +1%
So keep this in mind:
Not a single polls has Clinton doing as well as Obama. Normally this wouldn't be such a big deal--after all, most people don't obsessively read polling data. But this year's race might be different. If, as seems increasingly likely, the Democratic nomination drags on all the way to the convention, it's imperative that Clinton close the gap with Obama.
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/02/09/obama-s-hidd...
Why does Obama do better?
TIME Poll: Clinton More Beatable than Obama
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1711123,00.html
The difference, says Mark Schulman, CEO of Abt SRBI, which conducted the poll for TIME, is that "independents tilt toward McCain when he is matched up against Clinton But they tilt toward Obama when he is matched up against the Illinois Senator." Independents, added Schulman, "are a key battleground."
Indie voters likes me make the difference. I would vote for Obama but if Hillary is the nominee I will vote for McCain.
Dem partisans may like Hillary, at least the Clinton cult. But indies like me think she is fraud. Dems ignore that and they will lose the White House.
Yabu... It would be nice if you took a nicer "tone" of debate...
You are right that I don't believe Obama will win the general election. Nothing you have said has convinced me otherwise and what I care about is winning the Presidency and not enduring Democrat loss #3.
So pick my posts apart as you will, but in the end people will vote as they see fit.
Clinton, Obama: Why Not Both?
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1710667,00.html
I understand why people are wary to post here when you pick them apart line by line, and get rather nasty.
Then why did you ask me to post major network polls?
You don't have data to support your claim that Obama is the weaker candidate agaisnt McCain.
You have nothing but your "feeling". Well we've seen that irrationality from Bush supporters.
You said that Obama doesn't have the experience. When I posted both his and Hillary's record in the Senate you simply ignored it. You presented nothing to prove that Hillary in fact has more relevant experience than Obama. Again, you just "feel" that she has.
Clinton, Obama: Why Not Both?
1. Because Obama is running for president not vice president.
2. Because he doesn't want to be Hillary's vice president, which would mean a third banana in a
Clinton-Clinton administration.
Which part of that you don't understand?
I understand why people are wary to post here when you pick them apart line by line, and get rather nasty.
1. Yes I responded your lines since you posted those lines. What's your problem?
2. Stop whining. When you are here promoting a person who was one of the reasons why Bush became president, who supported a crazy war which Gore opposed, who now lies about why she supported that war (oh according to her it was even war but more inspections, yeah right) and who has no intention of following Gore's advice on his single most important issue then who is nasty here?
what I care about is winning the Presidency and not enduring Democrat loss #3.
And what I care about is having a honest a completent president and like it or not we indies will decide this election not partisans like you.
So pick my posts apart as you will, but in the end people will vote as they see fit.
Now with that statement you reach a higher level of wisdom.
1. You don't speak for the people. Noone does. You only speak for yourself.
2. You will vote for Hillary regardless of the facts because you FEEL you have to vote for her.
3. As I often stated here before voters who are driven by their emotions are idiots.
Yabu...No need to be nasty in your debate
Anything anyone says, at this point is a feeling... you must know that.
I feel that Obama may win the war and lose the battle and understand your goal is to refute that. If the delegate split was dramatic -- like what happened with McCain, OK, that's more concrete, but all the polls in the world, and your opinion and mine are feelings, the way things are today.
You feel Obama is great regardless of so little experience and I feel he lacks substance and will lose to McCain. OK... We disagree. I agree with you about that ;-)
Re:
Anything anyone says, at this point is a feeling... you must know that.
Again, don't try to speak for others. Just because you can't control your emotions doesn't mean
others can't.
You in fact don't know that "anything anyone says, at this point is a feeling". That's just your, well, feeling.
I feel that Obama may win the war and lose the battle and understand your goal is to refute that.
What you feel is one thing. What the data shows is another. The first is irrelevant. The second is relevant. At least for rational beings.
If the delegate split was dramatic -- like what happened with McCain, OK, that's more concrete, but all the polls in the world, and your opinion and mine are feelings, the way things are today.
Speak for yourself. I have no feelings about Obama's chance to win the GE.
You do.
I just look at the polls and don't deny what I can see. Unlike you.
Don't dodge the question: why did you ask me to post major network polls if you in fact don't care about the results?
You feel Obama is great regardless of so little experience
Wrong again. I don't feel that Obama is great. And more importantly I don't THINK that
Obama is great. I never used that word.
And I don't THINK that he has less relevant experience than Hillary because unlike you I
actually examined their record and Obama's is longer and more substantive than Hillary's.
That has nothing to do with anyone's feelings but with the information I found on Thomas.
I feel he lacks substance and will lose to McCain. OK... We disagree.
And you also feel that it's better not to look at Obama's actual record because then you will find
what you found looking at those polls: that your theory is baseless.
I agree Obama has runs an excellent campagn... No doubt about it
Hi Yabu,
IObama is ahead in a PRIMARY he's a good candidate and has run and excellent campaign and I am terribly worried because I feel if he wins the nomination, the outcome will be tha same as Gore and Kerry. I like him so I wish I didn't believe, if he's the candidate , he will defeated by McCain.
Yabu, you are a smart man, and I respect your opinion, but I disagree about Obama having a real chance of winning the Presidency, again I feel the ticket to win is Clinton/Obama. If that doesn't happen I feel we'll have McCain in the white house for 4-years. YES! You are correct Obama is ahead and to me that spells disaster. Obama's lack of experience is significant and I've spoken to Democrats that like McCain. I'm truly worried... This is a very worrisome situation.
So all I can say is CLINTON/OBAMA may not be your choice, and may not happen, but I think it's the only strategy for Democats to win.
You have suggested in other posts I don't like Obama -- Not true. I like Obama and would not suggest him as VY if I didn't I just feel that if men of the experience of Gore and Kerry could not win against Bush, Obama does not have a chance against McCain, no matter who he choses as a running mate. On the otherhand CLINTON/OBAMA will gain him the experience he need to be President and it's a super power ticket and I feel our best chance to oust Republicans from the white house. He's an awesome politician for sure... and I won't put him down. I wish Gore and Kerry had half his charisma during theior campaign and I wish Gore's personality had come to the surface in 2000 -- in the manner that he has since then. Back then even supporters thought Gore was boring and called him wooden man -- and come to find out he had way more personality than people knew (I did vot for gore). Obama has a great personality, but with so little executive experience to day it's a scary situation indeed. I believe Hillary is smart enough to choose OBAMA as a running mate, and they are the team to win, IMHO. I don't believe Hillary will win without Obama and I don't think Obama will win -- this time around -- no matter who he chooses as a running mate.
CLINTON/OBAMA '08
I didn't say that Obama ran an excellent campaign
I said that the evidence today shows Clinton is the weaker general election candidate.
Contrary to what you say.
IObama is ahead in a PRIMARY he's a good candidate and has run and excellent campaign and I am terribly worried because I feel if he wins the nomination, the outcome will be tha same as Gore and Kerry. I like him so I wish I didn't believe, if he's the candidate , he will defeated by McCain.
So you see these polls and keep repeating that that Obama would lose to McCain and Clinton would win.
I.e. you don't care about the facts you just believe whatever you want to believe.
Gore was not like Kerry. Kerry lost Gore won, by the way.
Yabu, you are a smart man, and I respect your opinion, but I disagree about Obama having a real chance of winning the Presidency, again I feel the ticket to win is Clinton/Obama.
You may disagree but facts are stubborn things. You have nothing to prove that Obama is the weaker candidate.
Hillary is because more people dislike her and more men and indies are willing to vote for Obama than
Hillary while there is no evidence fewer women would vote for Obama in the general election than would vote for Clinton. Do the math and you can see why your concern is unfounded.
Moreover, I don't want Hillary Clinton to become president. If she is the nominee I will vote for McCain.
At least he is a honest bastard while Clinton is a dishonest hack.
Obama does not have a chance against McCain, no matter who he choses as a running mate.
More baseless bullshit. Did you actually take a look at the polls I posted?
Or you just fell in love without your own feelings and don't care about facts which discredit your theory?
You have suggested in other posts I don't like Obama -- Not true.
I didn't suggest anything like that.
He's an awesome politician for sure... and I won't put him down.
What does that mean in this case? Awesome politician? That's an oxymoron.
No. Obama won't win, if he wins, because he is an "awesome politician" but because people are fed up with both the Clintons and the Bushes and the Reps in general.
I wish Gore and Kerry had half his charisma during theior campaign and I wish Gore's personality had come to the surface in 2000 -- in the manner that he has since then.
What charisma? Explain. I don't wish that Gore had behaved like Obama behaves today.
I like Gore the way he is. I don't want him to be different.
You are ridiculously superficial.
Back then even supporters thought Gore was boring and called him wooden man
I don't have any problem with wooden people and I didn't think Gore was boring at all.
If you did then the problem was in your department.
Also, the business of governance looks and sounds boring for the average person so let the candidates be boring. That's a realistic picture of the job they run for.
I like Obama and would not suggest him as VY if I didn't I just feel that if men of the experience of Gore and Kerry could not win against Bush,
1. Gore won. He had more voters than Bush.
2. This is not 2000 when the Reps were desperate to get back the White House and Clinton fatigue
was dominant. This is 2008 when Bush fatigue is dominant and the Dems are desperate to get back the White House.
3. In 2000 Nader was a factor. In 2008 he won't be a factor. Especially not if Obama is the nominee.
4. McCain is not Bush. Bush had a unified and energized Rep base behind him. McCain doesn't have anything like that. He has a lot of problems with conservatives. More than Bush Sr or Dole had.
5. Kerry's case shows that a hell of a lof of voters don't care about experience as you define it. I.e. how much time someone spent in the federal government. Wisdom, vision and honesty are much more important.
I believe Hillary is smart enough to choose OBAMA as a running mate,
1. It's one thing what Hillary would like to do it's another whether Obama would agree.
He won't be Hillary's veep. Get over it. Only a fool would accept that job while Bill Clinton is around.
2. Hillary is not that smart at all. She is overrated.
I don't believe Hillary will win without Obama and I don't think Obama will win
1. Obama has a much better chance to win than Hillary.
2. You are right Hillary won't win without Obama. She doesn't have much chance to win regardless of who her running mate is.
No Matter How you Cut it... CLINTON/OBAMA is a power Ticket
Yabu,
I will agree to Disagree... For now.
Otherwise it feels like a pissing match.
You certainly cut reality out of your thinking.
There won't be a Clinton/Obama ticket not the least because Obama won't be Hillary Clinton's running mate. And a candidate who would lose to McCain can hardly have a "power ticket".
As for pissing you pissed on Gore when you decided to support Hillary Clinton, of all people,
who did everything she could to hinder Gore's fundrasing efforts in 2000 and
whose chief strategist is the very same guy Gore fired because he lied to him and who wrote this hitpiece after the Supreme Court stole the election:
Turning A Win Into a Draw
By Mark J. Penn
Gore's populist message worked well with the Democratic base, but fell far short with swing voters who could have pushed him over the top. By failing to talk about the Clinton administration's economic achievements, Gore lost a golden opportunity to win the huge number of citizens who felt that the country was "on the right track."
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=269&contentid=2922
And he is still trashing Gore:
On a conference call with reporters just now, Hillary pollster Mark Penn sought to make the case for her electability by dredging up bad memories of the GOP and right-wing media's successful efforts to redefine Al Gore and John Kerry, arguing that Hillary wouldn't succumb to such tactics....
...Penn said that Hillary has "withstood" this process, while Obama would find that his independent support "would evaporate relatively quickly once he faced the Republicans." Penn added that the GOP "is already playing the national security card against Obama."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/11/mark-penn-obama-independ_n_8608...
Vote for Hillary and this thug will be her Karl Rove.
Vote for Hillary and you can say goodbye to a president who will actually listen to Gore.
This is still a pro-Gore site. So don't promote Hillary here. She was not and is not on Gore's side.
What Me Worry?
Hello again Arty!
We're all worried that John McCain could somehow win and the White House will be in the hands of the Republicans for another four long years. Anything could happen, there is no guarantee. I'm just saying that we think Obama really is most likely to defeat McCain.
A couple months ago Hillary Clinton winning the nomination seemed inevitable. Obama is now ahead because he's earned it. He's ran an excellent campaign. He's grown a huge foundation of grass-roots donors. His campaign themes and policies have connected with millions of people. That's a huge accomplishment that should assuage some of our uneasiness. Look at all the experienced people supporting him now.
Barack Obama didn't become editor of the Harvard Law Review because he's got style. He's a brilliant man, talented in many ways. I know we were so deeply disappointed with the last two elections, but, how are we going to go forward in 2008? Arty, I know you like Obama but are nervous about supporting his candidacy. I'm saying that without Al Gore running, he's the best one.
Jump on in, the water's fine!
Two Heads are Better Than One - A Fishy Love Story
Oh where, Oh where,
Can my packages be?
Oh where, Oh where,
Can they be?
Did a hag whore get mad,
And take my other bags?
Oh where, Oh where can they be?
SCENARIO: Tracey is Fishy / Pushpinder is ?
Valentine's Day 2008 - Will Fishy receive the Pushpinder Love Slap?
The Slap Heard Around the World
She does provoke him for a reason. In a fake drunken state will Fishy provoke Pushpinder to slap her. Making her cry fake tears. Pushpinder will fall for her fake tears melting his heart. Fishy will get loved the way she likes it. A dopehead's manipulation.
Is Fishy married? Two heads are better than one!
Hillary and Obama
CLINTON/OBAMA to Win... If not?
If Obama runs as Hillary's running mate, claims of inexperience, will not stop that team and Obama would get solid Executive experience, setting him up to become the next president. . Strategically, I think they'd be unbeatable. OBAMA/? makes me really worried, particularly against the "Liberal" Republican McCain who, if I was him, looking to win strategically against whomever Democrats choose, I'd choose Condolina Rice. That way, OBAMA's Black block would be split.
Who would you choose to run with OBAMA?
I'm from CA, I liked the ticket of GORE/BOXER so I'd choose: OBAMA/BOXER, though again, I feel that is not nearly as strong a winning ticket as CLINTON/OBAMA. iI he loses he candicay, he loses real opportunity if Hillary does not pick him as a running mate -- but she better if she wants to win.
Tolerance
Hi again Arty
Personally, I think Hillary Clinton is very capable, but I think Barack Obama is a better nominee and almost surely has a better chance of winning the election. Some people here will sort of trash Hillary; I even might get close to that line at times, but I don't want to disrespect your opinion. When I look at our current situation I see problems with a Hillary candidacy. She just is not someone who works well across the aisle and brings people together. Apparently she can't even bring Democrats together. She is not that great of a speaker. She seems to be quite calculating in her policy positions, foremost on the Iraq war. And she is the one candidate who could motivate Republicans to turn out in November and give them real hope they could win. It's hardly a secret, Republicans are praying that Senator Clinton wins the Democratic nomination.
Please don't think that being a woman is a reason for me not to support HRC. Race and gender should be irrelevant. I voted for women to be both of my Senators and my Governor. Being a Clinton however, is a factor. I do not want to live in a monarchy. I do not want a restoration of the Clinton royal line. To me, two families controlling the White House for 24 to 28 consecutive years is simply un-American. Let the first woman President be a lady who does not ride into office on the coattails of her husband.
two cents
Wayne... Of Course I respect your opinion...
Wayne, I hope you know I value your opinion, and respect you -- a lot -- but I disagree -- for the most part. What I truly believe is that Hillary is more electable as President, if she has Obama as a running mate; and Obama lacks Executive Experience, and will not get elected as President. Together I think they will be WIN!!!!
As it turns out even though I am a card carrying Green Party Member, and signed up on the internet, but they did not switch my party affiliation so all this time I thought I could not vote in a Democratic primary, but turns out I could. Funny... but I was glad, as it turned out.. (lol) funny really...
The issue of White Men not supporting Hillary came from the polls as did the issue of the Black vote, so that's not an opinion. If McCain chooses Rice (which from a strategy standpoint is what I would do if I was him) that will split the Black vote. I vote based on the candidates I feel will do the best job, and whom I feel will win. I like what the Green Party stands for, but in a Presidential election they don't have the experience and are unelectable. I truly feel Obama is an awesome politician, and my gut says, he will not win -- Democrats will not win -- if he is chosen as the candidate. As for Change, I feel he is basically sincere, and it's a brilliant campaign strategy. In the two party system his hands will be tied just like all the rest. As far as the war is concerned , it's easy to say he didn't vote for it, because he wasn't there to vote, How many Democrats didn't vote for the war -- not many -- and you know that's true.
I remember saying how important being against the war was in the last Senate race, and few Democrats supported that position even at that time.
If we want to win -- I agree Hillary may not win without Obama as a running mate, but I also feel he will not be elected President this time around, because he lacks experience, and Republicans will slam him, and I want to see a Democrat team win.
As for dynasty's -- How about Edward Kennedy -- he seemed to help Obama alot with his endorsement and Gore, followed his father. I have mixed feelings about term limits. What I'd like to see is change that will not happen with the current stagnant and corrupt two-party system we have, that relies on special interests and corporate "sponsors" for anyone who is running... Democrat, Republican, Hillary and Obama... they all answer to basically the same corporations, and old boy network to get elected and support the party(s).
I understand why you are enthusiastic about Obama, he's an awesome person/democrat/politician, I just don't see him winning this time around, and if he was on a ticket with Hillary he would be in the best position to become President. I would support him, if I thought he would win -- but I don't think this time he will. If Hillary get's the nomination and doesn't choose him as a running mate, she probably won't win either and Democrats will be looking at loss # 3.
Obama
I have voted Democrat since 1972. If Hillary gets nomination I will not vote for her.
Iraq war, she voted with Bush!!!
She lost health care in the 1990's. Do not give her a chance to lose it again!!!
Vote OBAMA. He is not experienced in making wrong decisions!!
You can become a Green ;-)
Too bad Al Gore didn't elect to run.
All the Democrats of any standing voted for the war at that time... Obana didn't vote -- because he wasn't in the US Senate -- so it's easy to say he didn't vote for the war. I like Obama but feel if he runs for President, without more experience Democrats are looking at a 3 time loss... I hate to say it... i really do... but that's my feeling, and it is shared by many
CLINTON/OBAMA !!!!!!!! No Bull this is truly a winning ticket. It is the best strategy for Democrats to win the Presidency and Hillary will do an excellent job and Obama will be a shoe-in for the next election.
Gore was VP after many years in the Senate and lost the Presidency.... are we ready to gamble for loss #3... or do you think the Hillary haters will join the Greens?
Hillary was the first to seriously introduce a health care plan... I don't want to tear down Obama but he talks a lot of change but doesn't talk much about action plans. He flip/-flopped on a Single Payer Health Plan, and he says Hillary is more in the pocket of Big Business Special Interests, but so is he. All Republicans and Democrats are. Now the collective conciousness is so strong for health care even the Republicans will talk about it. Hillary is ready to implement it. Obama could not have got that done way back when. She paved the way with that and it represents a true shift and taking action for change. She'll do good! So would Obama as VP.
If Gore had run as an Independent, that would be real change. All the rest is propaganda and he came up with the strategy of hsi main talking poitn being Change -- smart move for a primary -- but I don't see him winning the Presidency. That's what I care about. Hillary will do a good job. I don't see Obama getting elected, he would be brilliant as VP, as Gore was, and he's young and will be in a better position to get elected as President next time.
Let's win with CLINTON/OBAMA !!!!
You know what's really weird
No matter how you cut it if Hillary's on the ticket we'll have to find some place for Bill. I can imagine it would be very difficult for any VP of Hillary's to feel they actually have the second seat and not Bill. I foresee a lot of tension in the White House! (Oh brother, I just remembered what Bill does to relieve tension!)
Hey Gallwinds ;-)
Always good to see your name here... I can't see Bill stepping on the toes of anyone... Too bad he got caught with something so many in Washington enjoy. He's very smart indeed, and I wish the economy was today, what it was when he was in charge. Did you see the interviews I posted? She talks about what she feels his roll will be as First Husband.
Hillary will do as good a job, and she did pave the way for major change in health care, so she is a visionary and takes action for change. Sure she's been beat-up and knocked down but Obama has all those favors for those theat have helped him come up. He's do a good job too I just don't feel he's electable at this time, and the time is now for a Democrat to win.
It will be awesome to see the first woman President inaugurated, and Obama would advance his career indeed, if she picks him as her running mate which she would be smart to do, that two-some is unbeatable. Obama to win is a long-shot, IMHO. Sorry to repeat myself, but I just don't want Democrtats to lose again, by not using a strategy to win. I also feel it';s time to appreciate tthat if Hillary wins your either on board or jumping ship, and that seems rather silly -- to put it nicely.
Obama is charming... but why is it people here trash Hillary, it's not like she isn't capable? It's not like she isn't supported by many. Do the people here who trash Hillary like any women politicians better to run for President? Hmmmm.... That would be interesting to know.
CLINTON/OBAMA to win!
She is not capable. She is overhyped
and that is based on one thing: she is the wife of a former president.
That's it. She is not a self-made front-runner. She has never done anything unique or original.
Unlike for example, Al Gore.
I can't see Bill stepping on the toes of anyone.
Then you are blind.
He's very smart indeed, and I wish the economy was today, what it was when he was in charge.
Except that he didn't create the boom. It was mainly due to the tech revolution and Gore had more to do with that than Clinton for that matter.
Sure she's been beat-up and knocked down but Obama has all those favors for those theat have helped him come up.
She was not knocked down. She won her Senate seat because she was viewed as the victim after the Clinton scandal and she was coronated in 2007 before Iowa because after 7 years of Bush (a presidency that would have never happened without Bill Clinton's selfish actions) the Dems wanted to turn back the clock.
She sure has been lucky, but not much else.
Unlike, again, like Gore.
It's not like she isn't supported by many.
Oh sure. Bush was also supported by many in 2004. So what? He was still an overhyped liar with a famous name. Just like Hillary.
She is supported by many Dems simply because she is a Clinton and because there are enough idiot women in this country who vote for her simply because she is a woman.
Hillary will do as good a job, and she did pave the way for major change in health care, so she is a visionary and takes action for change.
LOL. Just like in 1994, right?
Wake up. Her plan has no chance. Most people don't support mandates for adults and Congress will know that.
The entire concept is outrageous . I don't want Hillary Clinton to tell me whether I should or should not buy healh insurance, OK? I want to make my own decision. Who the hell does she think she is?
Do the people here who trash Hillary like any women politicians better to run for President?
I don't give a fuck about her gender. the problem is what she has done and is doing, not her gender.
I would vote for Michelle Obama for that matter. And I'm a white man.
It will be awesome to see the first woman President inaugurated
Just exactly what the hell would be awesome about that?
Her gender is irrelevant. People should be judged based on their actions not their gender.
If you want to know more about his experience
why don't you do your homework?
1. Clinton shouldn't be anywhere near the ticket.
She undermined Gore in 2000 - together with her husband- just to have a chance of becoming president in 2008. She first supported then opposed this war while lying about why she voted for the IWR.
She has a dumb health care plan that has no chance of becoming law, if she gets in it will be another 1994.
She rewrites her history inflating her resume when in fact she has done absolutely nothing remarkable during those famous 35 years.
She tries to sell the notion that she not Gore was the co-president in the Clinton administration even while not willing to release the relevant White House documents.
She is a fraud, a liar and a hack. Down with her.
2. Obama should not be anyone's veep. He is simply not vice presidential material. He won't be anyone's second banana and especially not in a Hillary Clinton administration.
"Why is is that white men don't like Hillary?"
It's not just white men. It's everyone who can see through her bullshit.
"I like Obama better than Hillary, as an orator but am concerned about his lack of experience."
Now that's the bullshit I'm talking about.
Hillary doesn't have more relevant experience than Obama.
He has spent more years in elected office. He sponsored and passed more bills.
So what does Hillary has that Obama doesn't?
Serving on the boards of three corporations for 15 years?
Now that's fine but that has nothing to do with goverance.
Clinton's '35 years of change' omits most of her career
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/26377.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/26/us/politics/26clinton.html?_r=2&oref=s...
But during those two terms in the White House, Mrs. Clinton did not hold a security clearance. She did not attend National Security Council meetings. She was not given a copy of the president’s daily intelligence briefing. She did not assert herself on the crises in Somalia, Haiti and Rwanda.
And during one of President Bill Clinton’s major tests on terrorism, whether to bomb Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998, Mrs. Clinton was barely speaking to her husband, let alone advising him, as the Lewinsky scandal sizzled.
Experience:
Senator Clinton, who has served only one full term (6yrs.), and another year campaigning, has managed to author and pass into law, (20) twenty pieces of legislation in her first six years.
These bills can be found on the website of the Library of Congress (www.thomas.loc.gov), but to save you trouble, I'll post them here for you:
1. Establish the Kate Mullany National Historic Site.
2. Support the goals and ideals of Better Hearing and Speech Month.
3. Recognize the Ellis Island Medal of Honor.
4. Name courthouse after Thurgood Marshall.
5. Name courthouse after James L. Watson.
6. Name post office after Jonn A. O'Shea.
7. Designate Aug. 7, 2003, as National Purple Heart Recognition Day.
8. Support the goals and ideals of National Purple Heart Recognition Day.
9. Honor the life and legacy of Alexander Hamilton on the bicentennial of his death.
10. Congratulate the Syracuse Univ. Orange Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.
11. Congratulate the Le Moyne College Dolphins Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship. 12. Establish the 225th Anniversary of the American Revolution Commemorative Program.
13. Name post office after Sergeant Riayan A. Tejeda.
14. Honor Shirley Chisholm for her service to the nation and express condolences on her death.
15. Honor John J. Downing, Brian Fahey, and Harry Ford, firefighters who lost their lives on duty. Only five of Clinton's bills are, more substantive.
16. Extend period of unemployment assistance to victims of 9/11.
17. Pay for city projects in response to 9/11 18. Assist landmine victims in other countries.
19. Assist family caregivers in accessing affordable respite care.
20. Designate part of the National Forest System in Puerto Rico as protected in the wilderness
preservation system.
There you have it, the fact's straight from the Senate Record.
Now, I would post those of Obama's, but the list is too substantive, so I'll mainly categorize. During the first (8) eight months of his elected service he sponsored over 820 bills.
He introduced 233 regarding healthcare reform,
125 on poverty and public assistance,
112 crime fighting bills,
97 economic bills,
60 human rights and anti-discrimination bills,
21 ethics reform bills,
15 gun control,
6 veterans affairs and many others.
His first year in the U.S. Senate, he authored 152 bills and co-sponsored another 427.
These inculded **the Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006 (became law), **
The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act, (became law), **The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, passed the Senate, **
The 2007 Government Ethics Bill, (became law),
**The Protection Against Excessive Executive Compensation Bill, (In committee), and many more. In all since he entered the U.S. Senate, Senator Obama has written 890 bills and co-sponsored another 1096.
An impressive record, for someone who supposedly has no legislative record. . . .
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0208/Obama_wins_Maine.html#commen...
So it's not just talk. Obama is not a kid and he has a more substantive record than Hillary.
" but they are both financed by BIG Business. In that case, dramatic change won't happen, in fact, Obama will owe many favors, and be more easily influenced but the boys that helped him step up."
Not true. Most of Obama's money has come from small donors. While most of Hillary's money came from rich white guys, pardon my French. That's a fact.
"particularly white men, but when all is said and done, she is a very capable advocate for change. "
Like in 1994, right?
She failed to sell her ideas to the Congress. A Democratic Congress!!
What makes you think next time around it will be different?
She had a bunker mentality back then and she will have it again.
Her health care plan has no chance of becoming law. Not only because it's crap (mandates for adults and then going after their wages if they don't comply -- huh? gimme a break.) but because she is not a good negotiator -- unlike Obama.
She has a my way or the highway mentality -- just like Bush.
Attn: yabu, you have a gift
yabu, maybe you could write for Obama's campaign. You have a beautiful gift for organizing facts. I am very impressed with that.
What really strikes me
is that all these people who say Obama doesn't have experience confuse their own ignorance
with the facts.
They think if I don't know it it doesn't exist.
Barach Obama admiits only Executive Experience is Harvard Review
This is an actual interview with Barach Obama -- who would get solid experience as VP -- and he would be lined up to run as the next president. According to his own admission in this interview his only executive experience was at Harvard Review, and running this campaign. He's gifted, but not specific about his claims for change or not taking money from special interests. He will be slammed by the Republicans.
I don't want to see another loss... my feeling is due to his lack of experience he's unelectable in a Presidential election -- which is a far different race than a primary.
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/138/clinton_and_obama
CLINTON/OBAMA!!!!! This is a ticket for President that can win!
And what is Clinton's executive experience?
Nada.
She can't even run her own campaign with the effectiveness and efficiency you can see on Obama's side.
At least Obama has some kind of executive experience.
Not that that alone would make or break a presidential candidate.
We just have a a former governor in the White House who in 2000 was running against a guy who
didn't have executive experience. So your argument has no legs.
CLINTON/OBAMA!!!!! This is a ticket for President that can win!
In your wildest dreams, maybe.
Re: Yabu, thank you for your post
Yabu, thank you for providing the necessary information, it was an eye opener. I think ArtyGreen4Gore does not like Obama for other reasons than he says and that is a shame.
I like Barach Obama a Lot -- I don't think he can win Presidency
If I didn't like Barach Obama, rest assured, I would not suggest a ticket of Clinton/Obama. Maybe you don't like Hillary, but you will probably vote for her if she is chosen and I feel that Clinton/Obama is a winning ticket and Obama/? is more likely to fall short as did Gore and Kerry.
I want to see Democrats in the white house and I'm confident Hillary would do a good job and Obama admits his only executive experience was Harvard Review, and his campaign. He is great, but in my opinion is not experienced enough to win the election. He's an awesome orator and talented in debates but the specifics and action plans don't seem clear at all to me. It's one thing to win primaries, the Presidential election is way different. If he was VP he would be a tremendous asset for Democrats, and would gain the experience he needs to be a truly winning contender in the next election.
CLINTON/OBAMA is a winning ticket!
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/138/clinton_and_obama
There is no evidence that Clinton would be more
successful against McCain.
In fact there is evidence that Obama would do better against McCain.
In case you believe recent polls. One after another.
This one for example:
New Hampshire: Obama 49% McCain 36%; Clinton 43% McCain 41%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2...
Winning ticket?
Forget about it.
Half of the country will never vote for Hillary.
Myself included.
At best she can pull a too close to call.
Yes I can't stand Hillary Clinton partly because I know what she did to Gore in 2000 and what she did in 2002 when she had an excellent opportunity to show how much experience she had.
Instead she voted for an insane resolution just to protect her own damn imagine.
She was apparently too dumb to understand that this was will become a disaster and won't help her in 2008. She, like most idiots at the time, foresaw a cakewalk.
He's an awesome orator and talented in debates but the specifics and action plans don't seem clear at all to me.
Here we go again.
If it's not clear to you that means it's not clear at all, right?
No. It just means that YOU don't know shit about Obama's record.
Go and do your homework. See what kind of bills he sponsosed and co-sponsored and passed.
Once you do that you can no longer argue that Hillary has done a better job or that she has more relevant experience.
For that matter you could start with this:
Obama's Economic Policy Address at the Janesville GM Assembly Plant
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/Cmzm
Or this:
Obama's accomplishments in his 11 years in elective office
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...
Finally, Gore didn't fall short. Kerry did.
Gore won the election.
And if you think that Clinton is more popular now than Gore was in Nov 2000 you really don't pay attention.
Barack Obama/????
Barack Obama will select a Vice President but it won't be Hillary.
i